tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34765608.post4150450539517212793..comments2023-04-01T22:47:16.850-07:00Comments on From the Rim of the Box: From the Rim of the Boxhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16148093420527019853noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34765608.post-34571029307037599522011-08-28T22:41:41.526-07:002011-08-28T22:41:41.526-07:00Growing up, I learned the way to maneuver the jour...Growing up, I learned the way to maneuver the journey of life was the middle of the road which meant to play it safe, don't ruffle any feathers, mind your own business, work, & pay your bills. To read, "Standing in the middle of the road is very dangerous; you get knocked down by the traffic from both sides," doesn't compute.<br /><br />As an adult, I've learned that what's important is to stand up for what I believe & be willing to pay the consequences. I read recently, "I'd rather be ashes than dust. I'd rather my spark burn out than that it should be stifled by dry rot. The proper function of my life is to live, not exist. So I shall not waste my days in trying to prolong them. I shall use every moment." <br />(Author unknown) <br /><br />While it's obvious our definition of middle of the road is different, our conclusions are the same - acting on & voting our conscience.<br /><br />Thank you for your insights,<br />Sherry CoxAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34765608.post-76436841658031639382011-08-03T19:48:53.542-07:002011-08-03T19:48:53.542-07:00we’re living in a fascinating time, historically, ...we’re living in a fascinating time, historically, aren’t we? I wonder what it will look like from the perspective of 150 years, give or take? much as we examine our own civil war—which it appears, by the way, that we’re still fighting in many places, in many ways; (don’t get me started on THAT!)<br /><br />I don’t think you’ve usurped any rights by validating what the Egyptian and other freedom fighters are doing. you’re basically saying, as we may have “back in the day,” of our revolution… “right on, brother!!” it’s awfully hard to give up power, once you have it, and moving to a democratic society from a one-man rule is nearly impossible. lots of dead bodies between one and the other. but sadly, that’s freedom’s cost—on a national scale.<br /><br />of course, hopefully, you only need to do that once…there are those who would come and remove your freedoms—freedom to worship, freedom to congregate, freedom of speech, freedom to make a living and to earn money in your own way (as long as you do not violate the ‘end of my nose’ rule.) male or female, you are free in all these ways, and more I cannot think of…and not only have you not usurped the right to speak of these things, paul, you MUST keep speaking of them, until everyone is listening and talking, also….anyone who is trying to climb to their freedom needs to know that the world is watching and caring, and praying, and wants to help… it’s amazing to me that we’re living in such an historical moment… <br /><br />efcFrom the Rim of the Boxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16148093420527019853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34765608.post-13682808252234508382011-08-02T19:50:33.303-07:002011-08-02T19:50:33.303-07:00I sort of feel like this, no matter what the news...I sort of feel like this, no matter what the news has to say about other countries around the world. We have everything here, and therefore it is easy for us to talk philosophically about freedom and values and a zillion other things. We can talk about hunger and nutrition and indulge ourselves in all that is needed to maintain the best of health, while much of the world is starving.<br />It's kind of like I felt for a number of months that I almost had no right to talk about being brave with cancer because I hadn't suffered anything from either the disease or my treatments. Two months of radiation enabled me to begin to feel it, and I'm amazed how it has tenderized my heart-- which I thought was already tender.From the Rim of the Boxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16148093420527019853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34765608.post-43865711613279895992011-07-24T23:35:20.017-07:002011-07-24T23:35:20.017-07:00A lot has happened since the last comment. I'...A lot has happened since the last comment. I'm still trying to make sense out of what recently happened in Norway. Just when we thought things are quieting down..... Anyhow, I've just finished reading Generation Freedom by Bruce Feiler. This book is about the Middle East Uprisings. The author tells many untold stories about the Egyptian revolution. I must say it almost makes me feel that I have usurped the right from those brave young men and women to talk about freedom - even when I'm just engaging this subject in a philosophical discussion. If you're a reader, I highly recommend it.Paul Yinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01202268728715535155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34765608.post-6136010935082453752011-07-20T22:07:14.261-07:002011-07-20T22:07:14.261-07:00PAUL SAID: I love your cloud metaphor, Ellen. It r...PAUL SAID: I love your cloud metaphor, Ellen. It reminds me of a comic strip from Charlie Brown—I THINK THAT IS WHERE THE ORIGINAL CAME FROM! let me try to answer your question of what his quote means. When he says “we best realize our freedom through dependence”, the immediate context refers to freedom from repeated destructive behaviors of alcoholic addiction. WHAT STRIKES ME HERE, PAUL, IS THE IRONY OF SAYING “FREEDOM FROM …DESTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOR,” WHEN, IN FACT, I’M QUOTING ANONYMOUS WHEN I SAY, “IF YOU ARE NOT FREE TO CHOOSE WRONGLY AND IRRESPNSIBLY, YOU ARE NOT FREE AT ALL!” <br />CARING FOR AND ACCEPTING RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR FAMILY; THE “BINDINGS” OF LOVE THAT EXIST BETWEEN YOU AND GOD…LOOKING FROM AN OBJECTIVE OUTSIDE VIEW THESE ARE ROMANTICIZED NOTIONS OF FREEDOM. BY NO MEANS DOES IT MEAN THAT THEY DON’T REALLY EXIST OR THEY’RE NOT REALLY IMPORTANT…I JUST MEAN THEY ARE OBJECTS OF CHOICE. YOU MAY TAKE ON THAT RESPONSIBILTY OR YOU MAY NOT…YOU MAY TAKE ON A FAMILY AND IGNORE THEM ENTIRELY, AND TAKE AND TAKE, OR ABANDON THEM…YOU HAVE A CHOICE. AND HOW YOU SEE AND FEEL ABOUT GOD, THE SAME…HOW HE FEELS ABOUT YOU HAS BEEN A MATTER OF DISCUSSION BETWEEN ETHEL AND ME FOR THE PAST 11 YEARS…IF AND WHEN YOU WANT TO GO THERE, I’M GAME! LET ME JUST SAY THIS MUCH--YOU SAY: …even my God is not totally free, is he? He is bound by his love for us. He has to come to reach out to us, because that’s who he is. FOR ME, YES, HE IS—TOTALLY FREE—AND IN THIS WE COME TO THE FORK IN THE ROAD…From the Rim of the Boxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16148093420527019853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34765608.post-47377428534515772352011-07-19T22:56:13.176-07:002011-07-19T22:56:13.176-07:00I love your cloud metaphor, Ellen. It reminds me ...I love your cloud metaphor, Ellen. It reminds me of a comic strip from Charlie Brown. Now, since I’m the one who read Yancey’s book, let me try to answer your question of what his quote means. When he says “we best realize our freedom through dependence”, the immediate context refers to freedom from repeated destructive behaviors of alcoholic addiction. And, here are my two cents of the night. Often, we tend to romanticize the notion of freedom as a condition that has no bindings, no obligations, or no boundaries. In that world, we can do or say whatever we want. But I don’t think that world ever existed. Although I’m not bound by alcoholic addiction, I’m bound by many of my relationships, my love for my wife and son, my sense of responsibility to my work, or my pledge of allegiance to my God. Ah, in that sense, even my God is not totally free, is he? He is bound by his love for us. He has to come to reach out to us, because that’s who he is. And now, I have to follow him, because that's what I’ve become. Yes, freedom is in the state of mind. We want freedom from tyranny. (Mandela came to mind, but I’ll save that for later.) But we also put our freedom down for something else. A young girl from work recently confided with me that she’s absolutely frightened to find out that she’s pregnant because she’ll lose her freedom. She couldn’t even have that beer she wanted. But talk to any mother who has fallen head over heel in love with her child and she would tell you “Who wants freedom?” “You want to exchange my baby with a beer? Are you kidding?”Paul Yinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01202268728715535155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34765608.post-29075433956359536212011-07-18T23:03:58.836-07:002011-07-18T23:03:58.836-07:00"...WE BEST REALIZE OUR FREEDOM THROUGH DEPEN..."...WE BEST REALIZE OUR FREEDOM THROUGH DEPENDENCE..."<br /><br />i keep coming back to paul's Yancey-quote. it's so interesting, but what in the world does it mean? it seems like christian responses and non-christian responses go off in two totally different directions...a spoken dependence on god seems to be part of the freedom experience for christians--at least the ones who're here.<br /><br />for me, freedom is just like it says in the song in our posting.."Freedom is a flame that burns within ya Freedom's in the state of mind." <br /><br />All of freedom is in your head, and it's the one place nobody can touch--ever, in any way. you can think bad thoughts, good thoughts, or no thoughts at all...you can think the most unpopular thought known to the world...i could become the very first female president!! if that's not freedom, tell me what is...and it is stark POWER!! (I HOPE I USE IT FOR GOOD!)<br />ellenFrom the Rim of the Boxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16148093420527019853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34765608.post-33842745453282003802011-07-18T16:21:49.768-07:002011-07-18T16:21:49.768-07:00Thanks for your good comments, Paul and Jane.I can...Thanks for your good comments, Paul and Jane.I can tell you are using what Hercule Poirot calls your little gray cells. That's kind of what we wanted here.<br />You are reminding us of a pretty basic truth that in lots of ways freedom is one of life's greatest paradoxes. No freedom without a framework of rules and responsibilities. No freedom without dependence on others. No freedom without respect for the needs and comforts-- and freedoms of others.<br />BTW Jane, could you elaborate a bit on what you mean by freedom relating to God? <br />Thanks again to you all for making this discussion happen. <br />Enjoy!<br />EthelFrom the Rim of the Boxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16148093420527019853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34765608.post-62014832217140662552011-07-17T21:09:07.452-07:002011-07-17T21:09:07.452-07:00wow! i look at these very heavy duty pieces, and i...wow! i look at these very heavy duty pieces, and i'm thinking, in paraphrase, of a wonderful old joke, where frank sees a beautiful cloud formation in the sky and describes the image he sees in it, of venus de milo, and paul sees in the cloud, the majesty of the ceiling of the sistine chapel...and me, well...i see a horsie and a doggie!! this is quite a discussion i've wandered into...i can only add to it the quote i found that brings it to my level of discussion, and hope someone will talk to me! PEOPLE DEMAND FREEDOM OF SPEECH AS A COMPENSATION FOR FREEDOM OF THOUGHT, WHICH THEY SELDOM USE.<br /> soren kierkegaard<br />hey, it's a great discussion! keep it up...ellenFrom the Rim of the Boxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16148093420527019853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34765608.post-59518596022532759812011-07-17T15:39:41.248-07:002011-07-17T15:39:41.248-07:00Freedom - Words that are true and say something wo...Freedom - Words that are true and say something worth saying are hard to write. The best freedom is relating to God. After that, everything else falls into place. So even the prisoner or the abused child or ... can find freedom without leaving their circumstances. Maybe things don't happen the way we expect, but as we get past them a ways, we often can tell what was going on. Freedom isn't about circumstances.Jane Carlile Bakerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12473691462562225293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34765608.post-57033450049952645182011-07-16T23:18:17.054-07:002011-07-16T23:18:17.054-07:00I’ve been reading the opening chapter of Is There ...I’ve been reading the opening chapter of Is There a Meaning in This Text by Kevin J. Vanhoozer. He was quoting some who would argue that the meaning of words can be quite fluid. I tend to agree to some level that I believe the meaning of our words needs to come from some context. To me, freedom is when my son finally finishes school and gets out of the house. I remember when we’ve first started the Iraqi War, former President Bush defended his plan to establish a democratic government there as some criticized that the culture of Islam and democracy contradict each other in nature. Bush said something like he did not believe that there is someone who does not need freedom. I listened to that and thought he was speaking from a western perspective while he was largely unfamiliar with the theocratic mindset of middle eastern culture. I was talking to a young girl at work the other day. This young lady is from India. She told me the first time she met her husband was on their wedding night. I could still remember her excitement as she was telling me that story. I wonder how we should discuss the freedom of love with this young lady. My last thought on this subject for the night comes from a quote from What Good is God? by Philip Yancey. In a chapter about his experience with the people from Alcoholic Anonymous, he explains the 12-step program can be nailed down with two points: radical transparent and radical dependent. As he concludes on the second point, he said:<br /> “As the Twelve Steps express so well, that process involves a constant reliance on God and on others. Paradoxically, we best realize our freedom through dependence.”<br /> What do you think?Paul Yinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01202268728715535155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34765608.post-71934705338992263232011-07-16T21:49:36.086-07:002011-07-16T21:49:36.086-07:00Thanks Frank. This is an interesting analysis and ...Thanks Frank. This is an interesting analysis and compilation of definitions. <br />You mention the many peoples around the world who "are quite content with neither political nor individual freedom." I suppose if we'd never had those kinds of freedoms, we also might not even imagine they could exist. The thing is that the world has become so small that it's hard now to find a corner of the world where they haven't seen freedom in operation on their little electronic gadgets of some sort. Hence all the uprisings everywhere in countries where totalitarianism has reigned for so long. Hmm...EthelFrom the Rim of the Boxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16148093420527019853noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-34765608.post-13327847527206962782011-07-16T21:30:42.327-07:002011-07-16T21:30:42.327-07:00Some good definitions from The Wisdom of History, ...Some good definitions from <i>The Wisdom of History</i>, a course from The Teaching Company:<br /><br />Freedom takes three forms: national freedom, political freedom, and individual freedom.<br />A. National freedom is the freedom of an entity—a nation, even a tribe—to be independent of foreign control.<br />B. Political freedom includes the right to vote, to participate in the assembly, and to have a fair trial.<br />C. Individual freedom, the freedom to live as you choose as long as you harm no one else, includes freedom of thought and speech, as well as economic and religious freedom.<br /><br />The course also makes clear that, contrary to typical American belief, freedom is not a universal value. Even now, many peoples are quite content with neither political nor individual freedom.Frank Nemechttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16376688680892253613noreply@blogger.com